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Ale move falls flat

4:00pm Thursday 9th August 2007

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DRINKERS around York have been turning their noses up at John Smith's beer after Scottish and Newcastle Brewery started brewing the cask version on the wrong side of the Pennines.

The traditional Yorkshire beer had always previously been brewed in Tadcaster, but a decision was made in January to switch production to the Thomas Hardy Burtonwood Brewery in Warrington, Cheshire in June with the loss of around 25 jobs.

This was because of the sale of Tadcaster-brewed Courage ale brands to Wells and Young's Brewing Company in Bedfordshire, which led to the closure of the John Smith's cask-filling line.

Since then there have been complaints about the taste of the cask beer and drinkers say the ale loses its head quickly and goes flat.

At least two pubs in York have stopped selling it and many others have been returning virtually entire barrels.

Jim Hardie, landlord of the Blue Bell pub, in Fossgate, took John Smith's Cask out two or three weeks ago.

He said: "It wasn't very good. A lot of the regular John Smith's drinkers were sending it back saying it was not right and I ended up out of pocket.

"Now I have got Black Sheep bitter in and I am selling more of that than I was John Smith's."

He has sent about 90 gallons - or 720 pints - back to the brewery as he was "fed up with it".

The Three Cranes pub in St Sampson's Square has also stopped selling John Smith's Cask.

Manager Andy Innes said the pub had a reputation for selling good beer and did not want to jeopardise that by selling a substandard product.

He said: "We had customers complaining it was going flat all the time, they were leaving half a pint of beer."

The pub has sent a dozen 18-gallon barrels - or 1,728 pints - back to the brewery, but he expected that once Scottish and Newcastle sort out the problem they will begin selling it again.

Similar complaints also came from Monk Ward Conservative Club.

The Press reader Barry Sellers, of Stockton-on-the- Forest, has been drinking John Smith's for years.

He said he is thinking about turning to Tetleys beer as the John Smith's has been "tangy", "sharp" and quickly going flat.

He said: "You get an odd barrel that doesn't taste right and you think it is just a bad batch, but this is different."

Karen Hannah, a member of York CAMRA - the Campaign for Real Ale, said the consensus is that the beer is not as good as it was since production was switched to Warrington.

She said: "The purity of beer often relies on the quality of the water and tiny little details.

"Moving it to be brewed elsewhere will affect the quality of the beer as it is an individual product."

She said it was sad that a real ale which had been brewed locally for so long had moved from the area.


Brewer issues apology

IN a statement a spokesman for Scottish and Newcastle UK confirmed there had been some quality issues with their cask-conditioned John Smith's bitter.

The spokesman said: "We can confirm we have received a number of complaints in recent weeks regarding the quality of John Smith's cask -conditioned bitter.

"The complaints refer to the taste and quality of the beer produced in a couple of production batches since June when brewing transferred to Thomas Hardy Burtonwood.

" We contacted John Smith's cask ale stockists in July to verify the situation and, where an issue has been identified, we replaced the affected product with beer that meets the high quality standards normally associated with John Smith's. We offer our sincere apologies to licensees and consumers that have been inconvenienced by this issue.

"Product quality is of paramount importance to us and we are working very closely with the Thomas Hardy Burtonwood Brewery to ensure the problem is eradicated."

He said the decision was taken to brew John Smith's cask in Warrington because of the sale of the Courage ale brands to Wells and Young's Brewing Company (W&YBC), which resulted in the loss of around 25 jobs at Tadcaster.

Because of this sale the decision was taken to close the cask-filling operation altogether and hence switch the brewing of John Smith's cask to Warrington.


Rise denial

THE brewer Scottish and Newcastle, which brews John Smith's bitter, has denied a price rise is looming.

A report in a national newspaper yesterday said drinkers would be hit by a 10p rise in the price of a pint from January next year.

But a spokesman for Scottish and Newcastle denied this was the case although admitted brewers are under financial pressures like any business.

He said: "We were talking about the need to control costs as barley prices are going up and canning prices are going up. We are committed to holding our prices until next year but the 10p figure is purely speculation."

The spokesman confirmed Scottish and Newcastle boss Tony Froggatt had said prices will have to rise, but denied that he had said a big price rise was round the corner, adding beer went up in price this year and last year.


Your Say YourYork Press

Yorkenstein, York says...
4:28pm Thu 9 Aug 07

Now I have got Black Sheep bitter


Good man. Ditch Smiths, and leave it to the Boddington's drinkers.

If you get Theakstons XB, or Old Peculiar, then i'll be in most nights.

Cynic, York says...
4:31pm Thu 9 Aug 07

Most real ale drinkers wouldn't touch John Smith's...

Yorkenstein, York says...
4:32pm Thu 9 Aug 07

Cynic wrote:
Most real ale drinkers wouldn't touch John Smith's...
True, true.

Plaggy Terry, Heworth says...
5:07pm Thu 9 Aug 07

I prefer cocktails anyway.

simon, down.south says...
5:36pm Thu 9 Aug 07

The bottom of my world was faling out. Then I drunk John Smith's and the world fell out of my.....

Captain Jack Sparrow, Strensall says...
6:34pm Thu 9 Aug 07

Johns is not as nice as Guzzler and OP shipmates! York Brewery and Theakston beers are much nicer.

ouserower, york says...
10:00pm Thu 9 Aug 07

AH they closed the Boddingtons brewery too! Moved it elsewhere!
Black sheep is best!

Markyo, York says...
3:35am Fri 10 Aug 07

I once got off the train at Warrington and wondered whose chemical works was next door, it was the brewery.

David, Sheffield says...
9:40am Fri 10 Aug 07

Best pint of Smiths I ever had in York was in the Corner Pin - although that was bettered by a pint in the old Green Man pub on the A64 in 1988.

Whilst I quite enjoy a decent pint of Smiths, if Magnet is on tap and on form then frankly, there isn't a better drink in the land!

Thomas's also used to do a top pint of Smiths, again, back in the late 80s.

SilverSurfer, Surfing says...
10:22am Fri 10 Aug 07

John Smiths brewed at the wrong side of the Pennines - what is the world coming to?

Bob Reid, York says...
1:17pm Fri 10 Aug 07

Hotels and clubs seem to love Boddingtons, Tetleys and John Smiths in nitro keg form which is why I always dread wedding receptions and the like!

John Smiths has obviously just become another unloved brand name traded between the different "brewers" (in the loosest sense of the word!)and fast becoming deserted by its loyal drinkers. Very sad.

When Youngs closed their brewery, and merged with Charles Wells, they at least made sure the water was compatible. Doesn't look like the lager afficionados at S&N checked the quality of water in Warrington before moving their production line there.

Went to the CAMRA festival yesterday; no surprise that S&N or InBev weren't promoting any of their fine ales there!

ggnore, my house says...
1:18pm Fri 10 Aug 07

Twats tbh.

Grissholm62, York says...
12:08am Sat 11 Aug 07

Bob Reid wrote:
Hotels and clubs seem to love Boddingtons, Tetleys and John Smiths in nitro keg form which is why I always dread wedding receptions and the like! John Smiths has obviously just become another unloved brand name traded between the different "brewers" (in the loosest sense of the word!)and fast becoming deserted by its loyal drinkers. Very sad. When Youngs closed their brewery, and merged with Charles Wells, they at least made sure the water was compatible. Doesn't look like the lager afficionados at S&N checked the quality of water in Warrington before moving their production line there. Went to the CAMRA festival yesterday; no surprise that S&N or InBev weren't promoting any of their fine ales there!
Oh and where did you get your brewing "O" level from?

Anybody knows that even a dimmwit can match water at any brewery to that of source. Have you never heard of "burtonising". Try reading the Janet and John book of brewing.

And by the way, when you walked around the CAMRA festival did you not see Calledonian; Theakston; Wells Youngs (Courage) and Beer Seller, all either owned or part owned by S&N !

I have no time for big brewers, but ignorant ill informed comments like this just make laugh.


NicNac, NWUK says...
4:23pm Sun 12 Aug 07

Grissholm62 wrote:
Bob Reid wrote: Hotels and clubs seem to love Boddingtons, Tetleys and John Smiths in nitro keg form which is why I always dread wedding receptions and the like! John Smiths has obviously just become another unloved brand name traded between the different "brewers" (in the loosest sense of the word!)and fast becoming deserted by its loyal drinkers. Very sad. When Youngs closed their brewery, and merged with Charles Wells, they at least made sure the water was compatible. Doesn't look like the lager afficionados at S&N checked the quality of water in Warrington before moving their production line there. Went to the CAMRA festival yesterday; no surprise that S&N or InBev weren't promoting any of their fine ales there!
Oh and where did you get your brewing "O" level from? Anybody knows that even a dimmwit can match water at any brewery to that of source. Have you never heard of "burtonising". Try reading the Janet and John book of brewing. And by the way, when you walked around the CAMRA festival did you not see Calledonian; Theakston; Wells Youngs (Courage) and Beer Seller, all either owned or part owned by S&N ! I have no time for big brewers, but ignorant ill informed comments like this just make laugh.
Seems like he might have got his brewing OLevel from the same place as your Charm CSE? You also gave us some of your own "ignorance & ill-informed comments" - Theakston's are now independent (though they oddly now contract S&N to brew beer for them, poss now at Tadcaster & before that Newcastle; as Masham can't cope with demand) & Wells&Youngs have joined forces in a new co. to brew the former Courage-brewed brands, but remain an independent brewing company. In the past ThomasHardy/Burtonwo
od have had a go at brewing their own beers, Brakspear, EldridgePope and many more, none of which have I particularly enjoyed, but those that say that it's impossible to match a beer when it's been moved should try Brakspear's Bitter now it's moved to Wychwood Brewery, Witney, Oxon. (& no, it's not a Southern softy beer, either!)

Grissholm62, York says...
8:35pm Sun 12 Aug 07

Charmless maybe NicNac - but ignorant and ill-informed, never ;-0)?

Bother to do your homework and you will find that S&N retains both a shareholding in T&RT; and the the company that owns the Courage brands, which are licensed to W&Y.

I will agree with you on Brakspear's, and W&Y have done a splendid job on Courage Best (which was also ex Tad until this May). So - yes it can be done, and it's NOT a water issue.

Cheers!

NicNac, NWUK says...
11:00am Mon 13 Aug 07

Well, maybe we have different opinions on what counts as independent - ownership of shares is not necessarily a controlling interest (i.e. the Theakston family now operate their company independently of control from S&N, as far as I know). As to W&YBC - I thought that they jointly with S&N set up a new co. to brew & market the Courage brands, while their own brewing company remains separate & independent? My personal take on the original story is that in recent years (especially when set next to some of the true Yorkshire craft-brews - Roosters, York, TimTaylors, Osset, E&S-Elland, Acorn, Daleside, BlackSheep, CopperDragon, Cropton, Hambleton, Abbeydale, Kelham Island, Little Valley, Tigertops, etc, etc) Tadcaster JohnSmith's might have been slightly more palatable than the Burtonwood version, but to me it still was not a quality distinctive ale . (& no it's not a water issue, it's an attention to detail, ingredients & process & sometimes specific plant issue - I think Burtonwood were brewing Brakspear's with pellet hops, wrong yeast, no dropping vessels & I think perhaps cylindroconical fermenters, all of which made it not taste the same)

Grissholm62, York says...
12:54pm Mon 13 Aug 07

NicNAc, I was not arguing that T&RT or W&Y were not independent (I agree they are), I was making the point that (like it or loathe it) S&N had representation at CAMRA GBBF - contrary to Bob Reid's assertion. Even without them, Calley brewery (not trading co) is 100% S&N owned, and they were there in force.

With you 100% on the latter points, my spies tell me that one of the issues with JS Cask is the finings they are using - this is leading to a high sulphur "nose".

NicNac, NWUK says...
7:41pm Fri 17 Aug 07

Hello again, Grissholm - I didn't get to GBBF this year, & I'm still unsure what you mean - that S&N had a 'presence' at the fest because they have links to W&Y & Theakstons, or were there actual S&N branded beers (JohnSmith's, Courage, McEwan's or something?).

As to the JohnSmith's problem, finings seem an odd cause, tho they do often have Sulphur-based preservatives in them, I've never known a case where the beer has been affected by this. Sounds more like a water-borne (i.e. mineral salt based) thing to me, but I don't know.

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